Saturn Polar shish kebabs? What are Saturnian planetary alignments such as Talbott/Thunderbolts Saturn Polar Configuration or others proposed in the past? How do you physically get a BBQ style meat-on-a-stick planets and keep the stack that way for 100’s or 1000’s of years? How can orbits rapidly change whilst maintaining a shared common envelope of dusty plasma spheres, and maintaining some of Earth’s environment to keep a few ancient humans safe to tell the tales?
Welcome to Saturnian ShishkeBobs, my friend. For starters on the Menu del dia Velikovsky we have proto EU of Rose’s Modified-Philolaos, and of course the main course is our famous Talbott’s Original God Kebab. For Dessert we have a little Gary Gilligan Egyptian creation – the Velikovsky Oscillating Suprise! I am glad you asked me, because on the Menu del dia Grazia we even have some vintage Foie Grazia. And for drinks may I suggest the Thornhill Saturn Corkscrew? How long will that take to configure? Wal says only 300 years if we are lucky and the planets align, but well worth the wait if you survive it.
Saturnian ShishkeBobs Menu del Original Sun
# Early shishkebab Saturn configurations and satellite Earth
# The Thunderbolts of the Gods kebab
# Thornhill Corkscrew
# Oscillating shish kebabs
# Barbell models in Alfred de Grazia’s proto plasma cosmology
# Caveat emptor
Lots of names and mechanisms for proposed alternative catastrophe cosmologies have evolved over time: Abacus theory, Talbott’s Saturn Myth, the God kebob, Saturn Thesis, Northernism, Thunderbolts Electric Universe, Saturn planetary shish kebab etc. This new chronology cosmology project now seems to be mainly known as the Saturn Polar Configuration.
Stationary Saturn models and Talbott’s original god-kebob
The Original Tasty Talbott Shishkebab but now just an Archaic Plane Ecliptic. This was naturally the initial thinking for models that led to the Saturn Myth cosmology. But how do you get one planet to do that let alone a few, and all seemingly change rotation in a not chaotic system? What sort of satellite was Earth to Saturn? This really had Polar Saturn mythology stumped.
Similar to Velikovsky’s model, Tresman and Newgrosh describe theirs as: The Earth orbited as a satellite of proto-Saturn … a development of ideas first formulated by Harold Tresman late in 1972, which led to his visualising the Earth in a locked orbit around Saturn – i.e., same face always towards the primary – at a time (within human memory) when Saturn was without its rings and Earth without its Moon.
Saturn Theory | The Velikovsky Encyclopedia
The configuration of Saturn, Venus, Mars, and Earth all in a line (the polar alignment) presented some very real dynamic problems, for it was initially thought that all the planets were located in the same plane, that is, the ecliptic, and rotated around the Sun in unison, with the Earth’s North Pole pointing toward Saturn.
The idea that Saturn revolved around the Sun with the other three planets hidden behind it – called the shishkebab alignment – would in effect have placed Earth on its side. The crescent seen on Saturn, under this model, was thought to be the planet Jupiter, located between Saturn and the Sun, just partially visible and lit by the Sun.
David Talbott’s Saturn | Jno Cook – Saturnian Cosmology
Accounts of Saturn’s appearance suggest that the planet hung ominously close to the earth. In early ritual and astronomy Saturn appears as the primeval sun, described as a figure of terrifying splendour. Today, Saturn appears as a bare speck of light following the same visual path as the solar orb.
But during the legendary Golden Age, Saturn stood in the north. Legends from every continent depict the primeval sun as an immense, fiery globe at the north celestial pole—the visual pivot of the heavens. Unlike the rising and setting solar orb, the primeval sun remained fixed in one place.
If, as is almost universally believed, the heavens have undergone no major changes in astronomically recent times, then the myth – however meticulously developed – can only be a fabrication, produced through the purest disregard for actual observation and experience.
The Saturn Myth | David Talbott (link to review and free PDF)
Lynn E Rose describes his Modified Saturn-Philolaos model thus:
Other Saturn theories have Earth’s north rotational pole pointed at Mars, with Venus, Saturn and Jupiter lined up directly behind Mars. Several variants of this have been proposed over the years, notably by Frederic Jueneman, David Talbott, Dwardu Cardona and Ev Cochrane.
The modified-Philolaos model is easy to summarise: Earth once orbited Saturn, always keeping the same face toward Saturn, which thus appeared stationary to any observers in that hemisphere, with Eden/Aden as the sub- Saturnian point. The Moon and other bodies may also have orbited Saturn but were probably farther out than the orbit of Earth.
Saturn itself would have orbited the Sun. Saturn, much larger then than now, would have functioned as a Sun of Night. Not only would it have reflected sunlight but also it would have emitted light of its own.
Both the rotation and the revolution of Earth were left-handed, so that the Sun, the Moon (if it was there) and any planets that were there all rose in the west and set in the east.
… I regret to say that there is a similar behaviour in the field of Saturnian studies. ‘The Saturn Theory’ becomes whatever their theory is and it excludes me. Even words like ‘polar’ and ‘axial’ are co-opted, as if those words characterise their theory but not mine … I once suggested the name ‘northernism’, since Earth’s north pole points at Mars, Venus, Saturn and Jupiter but that has not caught on either. I would now like to propose the name god-kebob for this overcrowded column of deities but the defenders of the theory probably won’t like that any more than Northernism.
Saturn Theory | The Velikovsky Encyclopedia
Who was this modified Philolaus? What was his Central Fire system? Was the Pythagorean astronomical system need for an Antichthon (Counter-Earth) the Greeks version of dark matter and dark energy?
Philolaus was a Greek Pythagorean and pre-Socratic philosopher. He argued that at the foundation of everything is the part played by the limiting and limitless, which combine together in a harmony. He is also credited with originating the theory that the Earth was not the center of the Universe. According to August Böckh , who cites Nicomachus, Philolaus was the successor of Pythagoras.
Philolaus did away with the ideas of fixed direction in space, and developed one of the first non-geocentric views of the universe. His new way of thinking quite literally revolved around a hypothetical astronomical object he called the Central Fire …
In Philolaus’s system a sphere of the fixed stars, the five planets, the Sun, Moon and Earth, all moved round his Central Fire. According to Aristotle writing in Metaphysics, Philolaus added a tenth unseen body, he called Counter-Earth, as without it there would be only nine revolving bodies, and the Pythagorean number theory required a tenth. However, according to Greek scholar George Burch, Aristotle was lampooning Philolaus’s ideas.
In reality, Philolaus’ ideas predated the idea of spheres by hundreds of years. Nearly two-thousand years later Nicolaus Copernicus would mention in De revolutionibus that Philolaus already knew about the Earth’s revolution around a central fire.
Cosmology – Philolaus | Wikipedia
The horizontal planetary plasmoid beads on a Birkeland filament string just do not seem to logical work, no matter if you were on Philolaus another Earth or whatever universe you are in. If something seems hard to visualise or understand how it could naturally work, then in the EU that is always a warning sign.
Different planet alignments was suggested by Immanuel Velikovsky in his Worlds In Collision, Earth In Upheaval etc. Ongoing research into the physics of how you could rapidly change planets orbits carried on being argued about from the 1950’s into the 1970’s with people such as Harold Tresman, into the 1980’s with David Talbott Saturn Myth and Kronos journal. It continues today with the help of The Society for Interdisciplinary Studies members and others.
Thunderbolts of the God’s kebob
The vertical shish kebab of globes plus a plasma based cosmology is basically Thunderbolts Electric Universe theory. But it was not always so and is still argued today between Saturnian mythologists.
Wallace Thornhill accidentally met Talbott and a years later in 1990’s Wal suggested the vertical Saturn shishkebab scenario. This seemed to make more physical sense and possible processes evolved from there.
The stumbling block in this five-planet shishkebab, as first proposed, was the suggestion that all the planets would, in effect, be on their sides. If this whole arrangement orbited the Sun, the direction in which the poles pointed would constantly change. The dynamics of such an arrangement are completely untenable, despite the acceptance of this configuration by a number of physicists and aerospace engineers. Earth is a gyroscope, and twisting a gyroscope’s spin axis makes it react violently. The Earth would have split asunder from the forced change in rotational momentum.
It is absolutely astounding that for a period of twenty years, no one seriously objected to the shishkebab alignment, excepting a few physicists, like Tim Thompson, but none of these stated the obvious: that any change in the direction of the rotational axis of a planet would set it into a violent gyroscopic reaction. Rather than that, which was the first thing that occurred to me when I heard of the shishkebab proposal, we get endless references to Kepler’s Third Law (the planets would be traveling at different orbital radiuses at the same orbital period), and even more talk of what theories are supposed to do and prove. What an enormous waste of time that was. It was only Wal Thornhill’s contribution in about 1995 which in one stroke of genius cut through this Gordian knot of unimaginative scientificism.
David Talbott’s Saturn | Jno Cook – Saturnian Cosmology
Over the years and decades there were leaps made that modified or falsified now obsolete mechanics, theories. At one stage Talbott’s Saturnian reconstruction was at dead end. Then the Knock, Knock of fate and what developed afterwards became the Thunderbolts EU cosmology canon of Saturn configuration mythology. If it does not fit the canon then it will not, after consideration, be used to sail into and fire at the mainstream.
Through all those years Talbott had stuck to his mythological canon as Thunderbolts still do to this day. The models/sciences have to be wrong as they must reproduce Talbott’s and the ancient civilisations experience of Saturn’s Myths observed in the heavens and sometimes catastrophically witnessed in the geology of Earth.
Scientists could create something Dark to explain why this particular modified version has failed but for Talbott’s Saturn cosmologists it had to work in that alignment/order or all their comparative mythology interpretations were wrong. But they were so sure they were right a group of partial Velikovskian’s created a website and the SAFIRE Project. Stick that in your canon and smoke it.
Wal’s Saturn Corkscrew configurations
It sort of began with Velikovsky’s catastrophic chronology suggesting Gravity might not be that Constant after all. But his most important work that developed from his Worlds In Collision thesis might be his Cosmos Without Gravitation. Velikovskian heresy sent mythologists, historians and scientists into a spin. It caught the eye of a young and daper Wal Thornhill who had a degree in physics and electronics when …
In 1972 an article in an obscure journal caught my eye. It was written by engineer Ralph Juergens from Flagstaff, Arizona. By attending to all of the most obvious features seen on the Sun; the photospheric granules, spicules, sunspots, chromosphere and corona, Juergens produced a detailed engineer’s model of an electrically powered Sun that seemed to account logically and simply for all the phenomena.
The Electric Universe Heresy | Wallace Thornhill
The Wallace Twist. This is the genius bit and changed everything. Or nothing if you think the whole thing is insane and against peer reviewed evidence, astronomy, physics etc.
Early non-oscillating models of the horizontal Saturn BBQ shishkebab do not appear to be feasible. The vertically stacked planets, makes more sense but how do you move from a proto-Sun system to Saturn Polar alignments then migrate to our Sun’s solar system? Wal removed that variable stumbling block from the equations.
The Thunderbolts Project suggest that pre history humans were already living and going through a planetary migration through the galaxy in a meat on a stick alignment, hanging below the original central or main star in mythology and ancient civilisations history, Saturn.
Instead of planet Earth going from being in orbit around proto-Sol then Saturn then Sol, Wal suggested Earth was already in the gas giants (electric star?) electromagnetic plasma common envolope which was ancient humans original solar system.
Our historic Saturnian system wandered into the Sun’s system, something like this (diagram butchered from non EU theory source).
Thornhill proposed in 2001 that the Saturnian System, including the planets Earth and Mars (he did not believe that Venus was part of this group) first entered the Solar System in circa 3200 BC and approached from below at an angle of 24 degrees to the ecliptic. (The ecliptic is the band more or less at the level of the Sun’s equator in which all the planets move, but actually is defined as the orbit of Earth around the Sun.)
This suggestion solved the problem posed by the continuous change in the spin axes of the planets required by the shishkebab model. The spin axes of all the planets would now remain unchanged as the Saturnian System (sort of) corkscrewed into a circular orbit on approaching the plane of the ecliptic. After a relatively quiet period, during the Era of the Gods, the three planets would join the other solar planets, although not until a number of violent interactions displaced Saturn, Mercury, and Mars to more distant locations (plus a relocation of the nearby Jupiter). Thornhill estimated that the corkscrewing action would have taken less than 300 years.
By the Talbott / Thornhill model, Earth would have existed within the glow level plasma discharge (the coronal envelope) of Saturn before the intersection with the Solar System, and within the memory of mankind. This condition would have provided an amount of light which did not vary from day to night. The stars and other planets might not have been visible, and perhaps not even Saturn would have been seen — just the “waters above.”
Then, as Thornhill would suggest, on approaching the Solar System from deep space, and finding itself in a space dominated by the electric field of the Sun, Saturn would shrink its discharge envelope until Mercury, Mars, and Earth were located outside the sphere of visible discharge. On approaching the Sun, Saturn would become visible in the ‘waters above’ as a giant globe hovering in the sky at the North Pole.
The Talbott / Thornhill model – Saturnian Cosmology | Jno Cook
This new chronology and electromagnetic cosmology of Velikovsky/Talbott/Juergen/Wallace/Thunderbolts developed into an ongoing project to reveal, as Saturnian ShishkeBobs would call it, The High Stacked Tower of Power.
Oscillating God King Kebabs Scenario
The horizontal Shish kebab stick must have been a lot of peoples first thoughts when trying to figure out the incomprehensible madness. Especially back in the day with no diagrams, videos or people to discuss what on and not on Earth it all could possible mean.
But even in a heretical fringe pseudo-science the logic gates to that alignment was pushing the common sense envelope of dusty plasma cosmogony.
One of the first independent analyses of the dynamics concluded that this [David Talbott’s Saturn Polar Configuration] would only work if Mars were allowed to oscillate between Saturn and Earth – thus alternately coming closer to and receding from the Earth.
Strange as the shishkebab alignment was, this was even stranger, yet this is what Talbott had surmised from his investigations but never published as part of The Saturn Myth.
David Talbott’s Saturn | Jno Cook – Saturnian Cosmology
At the end of the eighth century and the beginning of the seventh century before the present era, when every fifteen years Mars was approaching dangerously close to the Earth
In The Beginning – Immanuel Velikovsky | Velikovsky Encyclopedia
The God King Scenario also suggests oscillating Egyptian God planets of Mars and Venus. Who ruled the mysterious land of Upper Egypt while their Phaorah doubles (Ka) ruled Lower Egypt. As above, so below.
Cosmic chaos began when a giant interloper entered our solar system and smashed into Jupiter, the largest planet. It caused an apocalyptic explosion which resulted in the birth of Venus and unimaginable quantities of space debris. Among the debris was a small body which became our Moon.
Shortly after its cataclysmic birth, Venus disturbed Mars from its stable orbit and they both took on highly erratic and elliptical orbits close to and in the vicinity of Earth’s orbit. This led to hundreds of encounters with Earth in a ‘celestial dance’ which lasted 3,000 years. It became a perennial cycle of death and rebirth as Mars and Venus appeared to move back and forth to Earth.
Recent Planetary Chaos? | God King Scenario
Could it have been differently inspired Electric Universe theories in a slightly alternative world of the ThunderBobs Shishkebab theory?
Barbells and Grazia’s plasma envelopes
The Velikovsky Encyclopedia suggests investigations into barbell scenarios have occured. The always thought bending Alfred de Grazia has his Saturn/Earth Dumbbell motion of Solaria Binaria. In 1984 he suggested most star systems would be binary and evolve in shared plasmaspheres.
Contrary to the hypothesis that the Solar System was born as and has evolved as a single star system, it is here claimed that the Solar System was and is a binary system. The binary system was formed when the primitive Sun fissioned. Several planets were generated in the neck of the fissioning pair and co-revolved about the Sun synchronously with the companion. The remaining planets were generated, one or more at a time, in several episodes, as the companion became unstable because of a changing galactic environment which we will discuss in Chapter Three.
The binary system rotates like a lopsided dumb-bell as it moves through galactic space. The Sun orbits about the planets and the companion as they also orbit about the Sun. To be precise, all bodies in the system orbit about its center of motion with the same period.
Figure 1. Dumb-bell Motion of Solaria Binaria. The binary system rotates like a lopsided dumb-bell as it moves through galactic space. The Sun orbits about the planets and the companion as they also orbit about the Sun. To be precise, all bodies in the system orbit about its center of motion with the same period.
Solaria Binaria – The Solar System As A Binary (link to PDF) | Alfred de Grazia and Earl R Milton
Alfred de Grazia’s Sac and its Plenum is perhaps now called in astronomy as the evolution of the common envelope of binary stars (or more than binary?) and some would suggest plasma cosmology.
The original Super Sun, prior to its nova, was accumulating electrons from the Galaxy consistent with the demands of the environment through which it was passing. As we have explained earlier, the Super Sun became too electro-negative and expelled material violently into its surrounding space.
This material could not escape; its expulsion was opposed both by the post-nova Sun and by the Galaxy. It thus formed and filled a sac surrounding the newly created Solaria Binaria. In the sac was the whole system of Solaria Binaria; the Sun, Super Uranus, the primitive planets, and the plenum (of gases and solids) of solar origin that nurtured the planets. As the binary widens, the sac becomes conical in shape, narrowing from the size of the Sun at one end to about the size of Super Uranus at the other.
Solaria Binaria – The Sac and its Plenum (link to PDF) | Alfred de Grazia and Earl R Milton
Some of the descriptions and directions in the diagrams may not be correct but it was the best I could do when Ctrl+C Ctrl+V. It is complicated and I have tried to generalise as much as possible. If there are mistakes or other models then please comment below.
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